5G Factor: AfO Woes, Cloud RAN Rising, & P5G for Airports, Episode 68

Hello and welcome everybody to the 5G Factor. I'm Ron Westfall, research director here at the Futurum Group, and I'm joined here today by my distinguished colleague, Tom Hollingsworth, the networking nerd and event lead at Tech Field Day here at the Futureum Group. In fact, I believe we're coming off a very successful set of tech field days, for example, cloud Field Day and Cisco Live US Tech Field Day.

Just within the last couple of weeks and looking forward, we're gonna be focusing now on the major 5G ecosystem developments that have caught our eye. And this is including Microsoft dialing back, its Azure for operators commitment, Nokia and Dell aiming to smooth the path to Cloud ran and also Ericsson providing perspective on how private 5G can make a difference in airport operations. Something I think all of us would certainly welcome.

And so with that, Tom, welcome to the 5G Factor, and many thanks for joining today. Are there any other Tech Field Day announcements that you care to share? We're actually gonna be at HPE Discover, uh, doing some exciting tech field day discussions with the folks at HPE Aruba networking, uh, that'll be taking place, uh, on Tuesday the 18th.

So you're probably gonna be watching this after that's out. Uh, but we'll be posting the videos and there's actually gonna be some private 5G discussion there. So we're really excited to see what kind of plans HPE has for that.

Uh, but you know, looking forward, Ron, you'll be joining us at Networking Field Day in July, and, uh, we're, we're ramping up for that right now. It's always the planning process for the next event, and you, you get to find out some of the cool stuff that people are working on. Yeah, no, it's all excellent and in fact, as we know, it's also available on demand.

So I think this is something that everybody will certainly be, uh, interested in looking at, at least everybody in our industry. Uh, so, uh, with that, uh, that's, uh, I think a great awareness, uh, about the upcoming tech field days. And yeah, let's go look at what happened recently at Microsoft.

And as we saw, they basically are preparing to wash your hands of its this switch and Affirm network acquisitions. And what is going on is that Microsoft is reportedly cutting as many as 1,500 jobs at its Azure for operators as well as its mission engineering units. And the move appears to have hit hard, you know, the teams responsible for developing network functions, specifically a key focus for a METASWITCH has been on voice-based communications, and that includes private, uh, branch exchange technology, as well as related technology such as SBC and IMS and also delving more into private 5G, which we'll touch on more.

Now. The other, uh, um, acquisition Affirm Networks was producing what can be characterized as core software for 5G networks or, you know, uh, core 5G technology. And, uh, as a bit of a background, the firm networks in parallel with me, me, rich, were acquired at the same time.

And, uh, firm was reportedly for about a billion dollars a bit north of that. And Metaswitch was reportedly for around $270 million. And what the move is suggesting is that the, uh, Metaswitch and Affirmed assets will ultimately be phased out or be sold off.

Now, this has ramifications clearly for Microsoft's telecom rivals, many of which have been, you know, keen about finding out why Microsoft made this, you know, move back in, uh, 2020 of which is almost about four years ago now. And as we've seen in the 5G market, Microsoft has been, you know, making some inroads. That is by selling both the, um, Azure for operators infrastructure platform along with, uh, the applications through, you know, affirm.

Uh, for the most part now, um, what it we're going to see now is that Microsoft will probably now be working with companies like Ericsson, Nokia to fulfill the application part. You know, the parts that Affirms and metaswitch have been providing as part of the Azure for operators portfolio, and with the wind down of Azure for operators. I believe it's not good news for, uh, telcos, at least the ones that are non top tier telcos, because Metaswitch certainly carved out a niche in terms of meeting their specific, uh, demands.

However, on the other hand, it's probably good news for competitors such as ZA and AWS because as we've seen, Ian and AWS have been working together to build and scale cloud communication experiences for basically telcos of any size. Now, the solution is, uh, that they have combined together is available in North America and has already been deployed by more than a hundred CSPs, including, uh, nationwide operators here in the US such as Lumen Bright, speeded, uh, blue Peak Explorer, and ViaSat. So AZA and AWS will clearly be looking to target, you know, the, uh, customer base of, you know, Metaswitch and Affirm now, you know, that have been part of the overall Azure for Operators organization.

Now I see the partnership directly expanding into the telco demand for next generation, uh, voice communication platforms. And that is something I think, uh, that they're well positioned to deliver because not only is it gonna be required to, you know, meet the demands of, you know, cloud capabilities, but also the bottom line delivering a better customer experience for, you know, uh, their combined, uh, customer base. And, uh, to put the spotlight on, uh, the za the cloud communications platform, uh, it's really has proven that.

And basically it has replaced a lot of soft switch base VO networks, TDM legacy networks out there with, you know, new ucas and cloud communication, uh, capabilities. And this is in accord with AWS's commitment to support telco modernization for migrating workloads to a, a trusted cloud environment. Plus, uh, I anticipate, uh, CSPs will deploy retail services based on Allianz and AWS solutions because, uh, what they can do is allow them to retain control over their customer's customer experience, as well as brand identity pricing, market positioning, and so forth.

And so this is, you know, true to the heart of, you know, the small telcos out there. They don't want to give up their, basically their competitive foundation by adopting, uh, a cloud platforms or, you know, a hybrid cloud implementation. So I think they've done their homework and under, and they understand that fundamentally.

So, you know, what are a couple of key takeaways from my view? Well, first of all, I'm still vexed that Microsoft wasn't able to find a buyer for these assets before, you know, basically pulling the plug on the major portions of it, that is the metaswitch in the Affirmed teams. And also I'm wondering, you know, why Microsoft with its deep pockets didn't decide to wait out, you know, what's going on in the telco space, as we know, at least in the us, uh, the, uh, CapEx uh, spending is now back down to 2017 levels, but we're anticipating that those levels will go up after, you know, the dialing back of the last couple years beginning in, uh, 2025 and so forth.

But with that, Tom, you know, what's your view? What's going on here with, you know, Azure for operators and the, you know, the implications for the 5G ecosystem system? I have to stop and think, because a lot, a lot of the coverage that I've seen on this is like, people are saying, well, I don't understand what Microsoft was doing.

It was 2020. Nobody knew what we were doing. Like we were racing to try to figure out what was going on in this brand new world, and we didn't know what the future was gonna hold, whether or not we were even gonna be able to leave our houses again.

And making a bet on a telco platform made a whole lot of sense for a company that quite honestly was what a third place runner in the, those application space at that point in time. I mean, zoom like clearly won that, that battle. Cisco WebEx was the incumbent that kind of got displaced, and then you had Microsoft Teams and teams needed something to change.

And I think what Microsoft was planning on was this TOCO integration. They were hoping to try to create like a one-stop shop, and then everything kind of went back to normal-ish, I guess would be a best way to put it. And then that revenue never materialized.

They were never able to capitalize on that and vault into second place, or even challenge for first. And so, like you said, they probably shopped around quietly and said, Hey, you know, we got this thing over here, you should totally take a look at it, because I'm sure they were getting pressure from their large telco partners like Ericsson saying, you're not gonna compete with us, right? We won't do any business with you if we think you're gonna compete with us.

And so they have taken a step back and said officially, Hey, we're neutral in this fight. We are gonna be a carrier only for all of these things. You can host your stuff on Azure, that's great.

Obviously teams still exists, but Teams is in a completely different realm than the rest of this. So I think this is Microsoft making a signal to their bigger partners, we're not gonna fight you anymore. We are going to provide hosting for you.

Now, I think they're trying to jump in ahead of that just so that they can maybe steal a little bit of share from, uh, AWS because that gives people kind of that preferential thing. Like, you know, if you want to, if you wanna run a virtualized or an Oracle database in the cloud, you do it on Oracle Cloud. Um, but you know, there's not really a home if you wanna say that for these telco platforms.

And I think that they're trying to offer that by saying, you know, obviously we've worked with the Telco platform before, like Metaswitch, we know how to build for that. Um, we don't use Metaswitch anymore. We're, we're kind of letting it kind of go fallow, so why don't you come, uh, take care of, uh, what you need to take care of with us?

And maybe what they're hoping is, is that the value they were hoping to unlock from buying into the telco market will come their way instead by being kind of the, you know, Switzerland of cloud providers when it comes to telco hosting. Yeah, excellent points. And I think that was very helpful, you know, providing the context, you know, what was Microsoft's incentive for buying Affirmed and Metaswitch in 2020?

And I think, uh, you put it very well, it was really the context at the time, and also, you know, uh, CapEx amongst the telcos was rising at that time and what peak at about, uh, 2022. And yes, uh, as we know, there's been a substantial dial back and it's hit everybody. And so Microsoft was not unique in this regard, but, uh, the outcome for, you know, the meta switch and the Affirm teams, uh, was not a positive one.

And, uh, I'm still wondering, like, okay, uh, I bet there would've been a buyer out there had they done a little more homework, tried a little harder, but that, that's my opinion. But I also think it's, uh, a key, uh, takeaway about when the acquisition was made, even with that context, it still seemed like strange bedfellows. That was my initial perception, you know, like, okay, Microsoft is buying metaswitch, but how far they're gonna go supporting SBC for, you know, an independent, uh, you know, l or you know, clec, uh, as you can still, you know, characterize them and so forth.

And, uh, it was really not meant to be, but yes, you know, there'll be the obligatory continued support and so forth for, you know, the legacy customers and so forth. But we already know they're out there shopping around knocking on doors, and thus, you know, Allianz and AWS are is one example that comes to mind, but certainly other competitors like Ribbon and uh, others, uh, Google Cloud and so forth will be interested and, you know, finding out, uh, what these, uh, customers will be looking at moving forward. And that, I think ties into our next topic.

You know, what about the Nokia and Ericsson an angle in terms of working with an Azure? Well, I think what we're seeing is that Nokia is now, uh, partnered with Dell for specifically the Annie RM proposition, or they have been partnered, but they're, I think they're spotlighting it now, uh, with good timing. And what, uh, is going on here is that they've been working together for over a year and that, uh, they're actually saying that they're gonna be ready for actual commercial deployments in the second half of this year.

So, you know, Eran, you know, which is I think smart market indicates that yes, uh, the, uh, partnership can meet the demands of, uh, the operators regardless of their ran, uh, preferences. And for a bit of background, Nokia's, any RAN allows operators to deploy ran functions using, again, those cloud native container array software on any cloud infrastructure. What I mean is public, private, or, uh, hybrid clouds now, uh, Nokia's software centric approach aligns very well with Dell strengths and cloud data center solutions.

So this is a very logical, uh, alliance, and so that I think is going to bear fruit for them, not just in the second half of this year, but further out, as you know, telco space starts rebounding a bit more. Now together Nokia and Dell can provide CSP and enterprise customers with that cloud ran solution that is designed to support them at each stage of their cloud journey. And I think that's important because as we know, all the customers out there want choice, and they're basically taking a stepwise approach when it comes to how are we going to best use the cloud.

And I think what is interesting here is that it's about offering both a centralized or distributed RAN to the customers out there. And that is what, uh, they are betting on that that going to be only offering, uh, a centralized RAN solution or distributed brand solution, whichever one you want, Dell and Nokia can support it. And that includes across the core, the edge as well as you know, far, uh, far edge site solutions.

Now, what's also important here is that they're very focused on delivering energy efficiency across, uh, the workloads. And so what we're seeing is that the Dell servers meet network equipment building system requirements for nabs, uh, that is, you know, uh, font to my heart because I remember when the first routers were coming out, n certification was a big deal, and here we are in 2024, and it's still a big deal, certainly when it comes to servers that can support cloud ran capabilities. Also, DE is supporting, you know, multi, uh, multi-tenancy, uh, along with the new workloads.

IE AI comes to mind, but also, uh, that Nokia's cloud ran customers can run other applications along with the connectivity solution on the same infrastructure. So we're avoiding silos here. That's the bottom line.

Now, Nokia is providing pre-integrated hardware from its partners, and as such, the Iran solutions can provide a, a, you know, diverse choice of CPU containers as a service or CAS software and application options. Also, uh, Nokia's man rate network management solution, as I see, can manage the whole deployment if preferred. And that includes different flavors of ran, but also the mobile packet core network.

And again, it's aligned with Dell infrastructure. So, you know, uh, why am I emphasizing this? Because both of them are in a completed open ran trial with Vodafone, Italy, where, you know, the cloud ran management system has proven itself, and I guess we can anticipate this would be a logical customer in the second half of 2024, and that would be a feather in their cap because, you know, Vodafone is certainly a top tier operator and we all understand, uh, the brand boost that can come with that.

So, uh, with that, Tom, uh, what are your views here on, you know, what Nokia and Dell are up to in terms of advancing, you know, cloud ran capabilities? Well, you know, Ron, the first name that I think of when I think of RAN as Dell said, no one ever, because the thing is, is that Dell is really well known for their server architectures, right? They're, you know, if you need a server, you can go buy a Dell.

I mean, it was their, their tagline forever. But Nokia realizes now that they want to kind of get out of that hardware market. Like they, they have their solutions, right?

But remember 5G was all about making this easy to consume, making it operational, um, where you're not consuming like bespoke custom proprietary hardware that requires expensive service calls. And that goes double for companies like Nokia. They don't want to have to develop these things.

They don't have to skill up and staff people to work on them. They would prefer to run a software stack on top of commodity hardware and not have to deal with that anymore. Inner Dell, Dell wants new markets, Dell needs to feed the monster in order to be able to sell these things.

And what better place to do that and a greenfield effectively for them in markets where they are trying to buy in and, you know, kind of increase that footprint while at the same time these other operators are looking to reduce the amount of legacy hardware that they've got. win-win for everybody, right? So just like Microsoft in the previous story was saying, we wanna be a neutral provider for everybody out there that wants to run Telco applications on top of our cloud.

I think Dell is trying to position themselves as the go-to hardware vendor for companies like Nokia to go to and say, Hey, we can run this. Now the question's going to be, are they gonna stay with Nokia? Are they going to be kind of the partner going forward, or are they gonna open this up after a while and say, Hey, we've already proven our chops with the ability to run this, we're going to let other people run on it.

Or are they basically gonna do some rent extraction from Nokia and say, you know, kinda like the, the Google being the default search on the Apple iPhone. It's like, uh, if you don't want us to switch, you should pay us a little bit more in this partnership if you want to keep this exclusive. And so I'm curious to kind of see how that breaks down.

I think ultimately this will be a successful partnership for both companies though, because like I said, when you have a Dell server kind of running in your, your edge, when the problem occurs, you don't have to call Nokia and wait for the grizzled old veteran that kind of knows that system to be awoken from hibernation and then, you know, uh, put in front of a keyboard terminal, no, you can just call Dell support. Oh yeah, you threw a hard drive, we'll go get that fixed. Or yeah, there's a weird power supply problem, we'll take care of that.

And then if there's a software issue, they troubleshoot to the point of going, no, no, no, no, this isn't our hardware. You need to call Nokia. Then Nokia can at least jump in with better technicians to say, okay, we know it has to be software.

We know it's traced down to this area, and that is going to allow them at the very minimum to maintain their current skill positions for support or possibly reduce them as more AI enabled functionality comes on board and makes it a lot easier to search through documentation and surface those odd results or so on and so forth. So this should lead to better total cost of ownership across the board for any operator and for the companies that are providing these things. Yes, I think, uh, these are very salient points and I think it also, uh, triggers the, uh, revisiting of open ran, if you will.

Uh, that is, you know, it was heavily hyped, but it wasn't unique to open ran. It was also 5G in general. I can remember having conversations, you know, about four years ago, like with 5G, you'll be able to order a drone as a service and have your lunch served for you according to your time preference and so forth.

These were imaginative use cases, but we know the reality is that has not happened and Open Ran kind of ran into the same issues. That is okay, the telcos are thirsting to get outta proprietary RAN implementations. They just want to, you know, open it up and take advantage of being able to mix and match the best of breed suppliers across the entire RAN implementation, let alone, you know, the end-to-end 5G network.

And as we know, uh, it's easier said than done. And when it comes down to say, the at and t implementation of Open Ran, it's very much in the eye of the beholder, but the, I think the bottom line is, uh, really two takeaways here. One is that major telcos and Telcos General are gonna work with a trusted partner in this transition.

They're not necessarily going to, you know, take a leap of faith and just, you know, do it yourself, integrate, you know, 12 different vendors and, and be done with it. They're going to rely on something they already know with. And so, yes, that is the advantage of incumbency in many scenarios.

And we saw that with, uh, a t and t and, but this is good news for Nokia. Also, Vodafone will be doing the same kind of thing when it comes to like working with, uh, Dell and Nokia. And also it's pointing to now that we've had some lessons learned, open RAN can be implemented more on a pragmatic basis, that is, you know, where is it going to really, uh, thrive, if you will.

And I think we're seeing that, you know, when it comes to Italy, this is something that is going to have real, you know, uh, positive outcomes for the open ran cause, but also how can it really be best, you know, implemented. And with that, there's also another market segment that has also had a bit of a hype cycle that we've already gone through, and that is, uh, private 5G and I think we're seeing some real, you know, viable use cases, at least, you know, some high profile customers stepping up and saying, uh, hey, or, you know, high profile, uh, testers of private 5G saying this is something that will, I think, make a difference for their specific needs. And with that, I think airports certainly come to mind, and Ericsson actually shown the light on this in terms of, you know, what is going on with airport communications that aren't so ideal.

And that is, you know, legacy systems such as Terrestrial Trunk Radio or Tetra Plus, uh, project 25 and digital mobile radios have been really the backbone of air, uh, port communications for many years now. And well, for better for us have continued to be so, and you know, while these systems, uh, are able to support basic voice communications, they have limited bandwidth and other legacy issues that makes it inadequate for them to meet the growing demand for data and video. And well, that's not good when it comes to things like airport security and so forth.

And so what we're looking at is, okay, how are they going to evolve their networks? What's going to happen? And basically they need to get away the airports that is the operations team from having to support and maintain parallel networks, including the wifi networks that many people will have to use when they're visiting the airport.

And that is quite simply a costly affair, let alone a complex ones. So as we are seeing is that it's not unusual for, you know, these environments to be managing over 120 steps just to ensure, you know, things like timely aircraft to servicing and, you know, workers having to carry multiple devices for various purposes. And that, of course is entailing cumbersome workflows.

And again, the dreaded silo systems and applications that quite simply are leading to operational inefficiencies when it comes to what's going on at the ground, at the airports themselves. Now, thankfully, that's not the case anymore for airplane cockpits. And so what we're looking at is how can we emulate the efficiencies that have been gained and airplane cockpits to, uh, support better airport operations?

Well, what we're seeing is that companies like Airbus and Stream Wide are basically, you know, uh, taking it to the test. That is, they're looking at solutions that support not only the coexistence of Tetra, but also, uh, with cellular alert networks across, you know, all these, you know, multitude of airport environment settings, whether it's the hangar, whether it's, you know, the airport terminal and so forth. Now, these solutions which, uh, are looking to be hosted both on premises and on cloud app servers can allow airport pros to, you know, access better communications.

You know, using really consumer grade mobile devices that is, you know, uh, not only say a smartphone, but say an iPad or whatever else makes the most sense. Now, adopting modern communication solutions will be key to improving airport operations. And that is, I believe, by using cellular based communications for these mission critical communications.

It's simply the way to go. It's the way of the future. And that also means using private five GY for the security that's built into it.

wifi is not necessarily gonna be best suited for this, especially when we're talking about, you know, the wide area networks that airport environments that it can entail, especially when you get beyond, you know, the terminal when you're talking about the hangers and so forth. And so I think this is important to see this because it's also acknowledging that, okay, they're not gonna rip out their legacy networks. How many times have we seen this?

There has to be a, uh, an approach that allows them to do this. And private 5G it can be accommodating in terms of supporting something like Tetra as well as coexisting with wifi, but meeting these demands for better secure streamlined communications and so forth. And so, Tom, with that, you know, what are your views on, you know, what's going on at airports and why private 5G can make a difference ultimately in terms of improving airport communications and operations?

So there's a, an industry that airports actually have a lot in common with, and that's a hospital, when you think about it, the people who use your service are not exactly the people you want running around on your network. Uh, I'm actually friends with the guy who used to be the wireless administrator for the Denver airport, and he said it was one of the most hostile environments that he'd ever been in. And some of the stuff that turned up there on a regular basis would scare you.

And a hospital and a airport both have one thing in common. When they have problems, it causes massive issues, and in some cases it can cause massive loss issues. So you wanna make sure that everything is, you know, effectively resilient to as high a degree as you can get, but more importantly that the operational aspect of things don't interfere.

Now, if you're thinking about this from the perspective of someone who's looking to, I don't know, upgrade their, their wireless equipment, um, having a very, uh, important, uh, SLA for your customers is, is a key. Uh, having it isolated would be great because then I don't have to worry about crosstalk or any kind of coch channel interference causing issues. And you talked about covering things outside of the terminal itself.

Well, yeah, it's really easy to hang access points in a terminal, but when you get to the, the ground crew areas and the hangers, those are really wide spaces that are really hard to cover with traditional wifi deployments. And it's almost like I wrote some kind of a, a description for a private 5G CBRS type deployment. It doesn't interfere with wifi, it covers way better, uh, areas.

And because when you think about it, how many people do you see running around down on the ground with a laptop open typing on things, or do they have some kind of a mobile device like a scanner or some kind of a tablet where, you know, they can basically kind of check in the, uh, you know, telemetry from the plane or, or baggage or whatever that's custom built for private 5G like you, you have coverage, you know, the device works, but you can also ensure end-to-end security because it's not something where people can quote unquote hack your wifi because they have to have the ability to connect to the system. They have to be able to get, uh, authenticated to it. There's a lot more protections.

I just got done talking to a couple of experts in the CBRS private 5G space and they said, you know, when you're dealing with highly regulated organizations like the US Federal government, they are going to demand that you use this. Well, most airports are operated in part by the FAA because they have to meet certain kind of regulations. And you've seen a lot of bruhaha around things recently where a lighting up the 5G Spectrum band people are worried that it could possibly interfere with, um, you know, airplanes and stuff like that.

CVRS isn't affecting that, that's in a different band. So I think that this is a win for airports because it allows them to move operations traffic into a completely separate network that's still easy to manage. You know, we're not, we're not running this on some kind of hope and a prayer over here in the corner.

Um, easy to manage, easy to deploy, and, and provides the coverage that they need for the devices that they need to make sure stay online while at the same time providing those security assurances and effectively allowing people who are gonna be using, you know, more traditional laptop style devices in the terminal to still access wifi, but maybe do it in a way that won't cause operational concerns with the airport. Because once you start having operational concerns, like if someone launches a DDoS attack against your infrastructure or something like that, that can cause huge transportation delays, which could cost the airlines thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for every hour that they're delayed. Yes, and I think those are outstanding points.

Uh, and yeah, I think that was an appropriate way to describe what happened with, uh, the, uh, airline industry basically resisting, you know, the ability of operators to use 5G spectrum around, you know, uh, airport environments. I think part of it what's political and financial that is, they were hoping to upgrade their facilities by having the operators pitch in money from, you know, the government's funding that occurred during, you know, the covid, uh, pandemic, uh, timeframe. Uh, and we know that, you know, communications, um, industry benefited from that in various ways.

Everything, you know, from, you know, bead funding, uh, to, uh, you know, funding, uh, directed at enabling broader, uh, communication and so forth. And well, the gamut didn't really work. And I think, yeah, the ghost was given up when it was proven repeatedly that no 5G communications, let alone CBRS and other spectrum will not interfere in, uh, any undue unsafe way with existing airport communication.

So that I think, um, is something that we've moved past, but I think it's also important to note that yes, when it comes to airport environments, I think there's also, in addition to private 5G, can add to the use case for 5G connected devices. Quite simply, you know, if you're working for a government agency or a contractor and you have to go to the airport, they don't want you on the public wifi and let's say, you know, uh, the employee is just going to be lazy or the VPN isn't working properly, whatever, the temptation's too strong to hop on there and boom, you know, there the, um, liability or you know, the uh, possibility of a security breach just goes up, uh, very significantly. However, if you have a 5G connected device, that is not so much the case, it will be much harder for there to be a security issue if you're at an airport or at a hospital or you know, at a coffee shop or whatever else might come up.

And hey, you know, we'll be covering some of this IE network security letter net upcoming networking field day event and FD 35, that will be July 10th and 11th. Uh, so mark that on your calendar. So it'll be coming from Silicon Valley.

I know Tom and I are gonna be very excited about being there at the event, but also people come and watch it. I think you'll get a lot of valuable information takeaways about what the latest, greatest, uh, what's going on there. And Todd, do you have anything to add about, you know, upcoming tech field days and so forth?

com to catch out the, uh, schedule that we've got coming. 'cause you know, we do have some other exciting things after networking field day. We're gonna have, uh, tech field to extra at share in Kansas City.

Uh, we've also got some more great stuff happening around AI and mobility and, uh, security. So you're definitely gonna wanna set your calendars based on our presentation schedule so you don't miss a minute of it. Uh, absolutely.

And I think that's an excellent reminder. And with that, likewise with the 5G Factor. Thank you everyone for joining us.

Don't forget to bookmark us. It's, uh, pretty straightforward. It's, you know, future and Group 5G Factor.

And with that, thank you everyone again and have a great 5G, let alone private 5G Day. Everyone.