Apple’s AI Leadership Shake-Up: What It Means for the Future | Utilizing AI Ep. 6

Apple's replacement of John Gene Andrea with Ammar Suber Mania, as the executive in charge of AI for the company, is reflective of an overall trend in the industry. Where are businesses going with ai? How will the technology be applied?

And most importantly, where are the profits? That's the topic of this episode of utilizing AI from the Futurum Group, featuring Frederick Van Hern of Hyphens and John Schwartz of Textron. Welcome to utilizing ai, the podcast focused on practical applications of artificial intelligence from the Futurum Group.

Each episode brings together diverse perspectives to explore news and use cases of the ways in which AI is transforming enterprise IT and the industries it serves. I'm your host, Stephen Foskett, president of the Tech Field Day Business Unit here at the Futurum Group. And before we dive in, let's meet who's on the panel today.

Yeah. I'm Frederick Van Herron. I'm the founder of and CTO of Hyen, and we provide HPC and AI Consulting Services.

Hey, I'm John Schwartz. I'm senior content writer for Techstrong Group, and I also work for Tuum Group, uh, where I do some various duties. And as for me, uh, as I mentioned, I run Tech Field Day.

I also am the co-host along with a certain Mr. Frederick Van Herrin of the Utilizing Tech podcast series. Uh, we just, uh, wrapped up nine seasons, including four of those seasons focused exclusively on AI with Frederick Co-hosting.

So, Frederick, it's really great to have you joining us here on the, uh, this new, uh, platform, this new weekly platform that we're kicking off here. Uh, we have discussed, uh, prior to the recording a topic that I think is a pretty interesting one. We just heard, uh, the news that Apple has removed, uh, John G and Andrea, who had been running, uh, artificial intelligence, uh, I'm sorry, machine learning and AI strategy.

That's the, the proper title. I don't wanna strip him of his title, uh, though I guess Apple already did. Um, they already did, they removed him in favor of Amar Sub Mania.

Um, a, uh, former Googler, a short-time Microsofty, uh, who's gonna be taking over ai. Uh, this follows actually the fact that, uh, apple removed GI and Andrea from Siri, uh, back in the spring and put Mike Rockwell in charge. Um, what's, what does this mean to us?

Now again, we don't wanna necessarily be all Apple political. That's not what this, uh, podcast is about, but what does this mean for the bigger picture of AI in the enterprise, John? Well, I mean, for Apple is just a kind of an acknowledgement and a, and a, an admission that Apple Intelligence, which was launched in Amid much Bhu in in 2024, has just not gained traction or not met the expectations ations of especially Tim Cook, but it's in the market.

So Apple's considered late in this market. Um, Siri is a kind of continuing headache for the company. It's, it's, it's, we we're not gonna see any real significant news or advancements in terms of Apple ai and probably until, at least, until 2026, probably the spring of 2026 at the earliest.

So it's a struggle, and it's an admission because there have been some other folks at Apple within that division who have left in terms of Apple intelligence, and, um, and it's, since it's not a, it's not a problem at Apple, we can talk about that later and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll kick it back to you. But there are several high pro profile companies that are going through this same kind of growing pains with this so-called Apple, or not Apple, but Chief AI Officer. There's the whole concept and the whole idea of how fits with, within an organization and how it, it's supposed to spearhead this AI growth, which has become a much more difficult task, I think, within, within corporations than they, than they really expected it to be.

Yeah, I totally agree. You know, uh, we, we see from a consumer perspective, you know, AI changing really rapidly, and in certain cases people don't even know where it's going. And the same thing applies to people, right?

It's still people running organizations and, you know, no matter the title we give these individuals, um, it's still challenging for them to figure out which way to go. And I think what we're seeing is organizations, like you said, struggling to figure out, you know, what kind of organization and what kind of strategy do we need to apply in order to find the proper strategy. Oh, yeah.

I just wanna, yeah, so Frederick is exactly right about what's going on within these companies, and it's not just Apple. So Apple is a convenient company that we, we, we look at such, such a high profile company that whenever anything happens, uh, we, we jump all over it. But I think what happened there is part and parcel of what's happening throughout some of the really high profile companies.

So I think I mentioned gm, general Motors had their first CAIO department department after less than a year. So over the weekend, a few, a few days ago, this has been going on. They, they, they got rid of this guy Barrack Swarovski, and, uh, he was only there for eight months.

And it's not as if he's some sort of schmo. They, they grabbed off the street. He, he'd worked at PayPal, Microsoft, Google, Cisco, but they weren't happy with the, their, their progress at the same time.

Um, our friends at Intel went through the same situation where their chief technology and AI officer left after six months. So he went to, he went to open ai, so he, he's probably a, a bit of a hot commodity. Um, another yet, even another example, Meta's ai, chief AI scientist, and one of the pioneers of, of modern AI is leaving to start his own company.

Um, it's, it's, it's, it's something that, you know, when we first heard about this concept of the CAIO, um, one of the things that I, I heard is in terms of feedback was how is this person gonna fit in with the CIO, the CTO, the CDO, how do they interact? I mean, is it just a, a new position that creates even more con organizational confusion? And I, and I'm wondering if this is now kind of, we've reached a point where after six months to a year, these companies are acknowledging that the structure isn't working within their confines.

And I'm wondering if we're gonna start seeing more examples of this. And again, as part of this growing pain of ai, everyone wants to jump on this bandwagon, cash in, they wanna, uh, ROI, they're spending tons of money. There's so much pressure from the top down that, um, we're consequently there are gonna be folks who are collateral damage as as a result, and they usually are the people in charge of the ai AI division.

Yeah. And I think that that's actually an important thing. You know, you mentioned that some people in the tech industry have said, oh, apple is behind on ai.

You know, I think that has to do more with Apple's unique position in the industry. Apple is not, in my opinion, a competitor for Google, AWS Meta, you know, Microsoft, um, you know, in terms of being a developer of sort of the foundational models, uh, here, or building out, you know, infrastructure for others to use, apple actually reminds me more of like a Ford motor company in terms of their use of ai. Because essentially, even though they develop a technological product, even though they're seen as one of, you know, the big, you know, magnificent seven or whatever, they're actually really more of a product company than any of those companies.

And, and in a way, even though, you know, g and Andrea's title was not Chief AI Officer, his function was actually something more akin to what you'd see at a, you know, fortune 50, you know, global company. In other words, how do we use this technology? How do we incorporate it with our core products?

How do we, importantly, how do we make money off of this technology? How do we make it real for our customers? I think that ultimately was the problem here, that Apple was looking at it and saying, we need somebody who can guide us forward in order to figure out, you know, what AI means to Apple.

Not, uh, necessarily somebody who is going to, I don't know, build a new Apple AI engine or something. Now, on the flip side, of course, apple is trying to develop a new Siri, and they have, uh, promoted a, uh, a new person, Mike Rockwell in the spring in charge of Siri. Um, because, uh, as was reported at the time that, uh, Fredi had decided that, uh, g and Andrea was not the right person to move Siri forward.

But, you know, I do feel like, you know, in a way Apple is not like the others and is really facing the same kind of questions that a lot of our listeners out there at regular non-tech companies are facing when it comes to ai. You know, the, the one thing that's, uh, gonna be really interesting to me is Apple is gonna be going head to head with open ai, I would assume, in terms of the consumer market and what is like the delicious irony. All in all, this is what Johnny i's gonna do.

So there's speculation now that Open AI famously bought his startup, uh, to create ostensibly some sort of hardware device, some sort of device that would be potentially an iPhone competitor, be some sort of AI device. There's rumors are starting to, uh, spread that it's going to probably, they're gonna probably see something by 2027, most likely. So he, the form, the guy who helped design iPhone, father of the design, is now at OpenAI.

So it'd be interesting, and I think maybe Apple is just trying to get ahead of that, because I, I believe, you know, in my opinion, and I don't know if you agree, you all agree with me or not, it's, I've been waiting for some sort of compelling, some sort of compelling device from Apple for so long, right? The goggles were amiss, the watch was semi successsful, but it was, it was kind of re reformatted for a different type of use. You know, there, there was always the rumors of a car technology.

So I think maybe the next thing, the obvious thing would be some sort of AI type of device. Um, we don't know what it'll be, but there's so much pressure on this company to to, to kind of kind of go beyond just the phone. Yeah.

I think it's important to make a distinction between what I would call a core technology provider. You know, uh, somebody building large language models like an OpenAI who is trying to actually build, uh, customer applications. What I mean with application is a more than a rudimentary text interface, right?

To, to their technology. So I think from that perspective, I think OpenAI is, is is adventuring itself in, into an area where they could be competing with Apple. Apple, on the other hand, I would look at them more as a, as an integrator of the technology, and I, I, I don't wanna oversimplify it, but it seems like Apple is more concerned about how to use the technology and integrate that with their users.

Um, but it all makes sense, right? I, I, I, I think one thing, uh, going back to my research days, you know, in ai in the early days, we really didn't know, and probably today too, technology wise, we really, really didn't know what was gonna work or not. So we kind of threw stuff at the wall and see what sticks in and go with that.

It seems like they're doing the same thing with titles and people, right? So they're kind of hiring people, trying to figure out if these candidates can bring them to the next level. And if it doesn't stick, they just move on.

And maybe that's not a bad way to be if you're Apple, you know, maybe it's a, it, it, you know, and, and, and if you're any of these other, you know, kind of big end user companies, I mean, ultimately the proof is in the pudding. And if an executive is able to perform and able to do the thing that you want them to do, then you keep 'em. And if they're not, well, uh, I guess they weren't the right person for you.

I think somebody earlier said, it's kinda like salespeople, you know, I mean, the sales leaders at companies often come in and, um, you know, they do or they do not, and they're given a bit of a leash, and then they're yanked right out of there if it's, if it's not working, um, you know, it, it could be something like that that happens with these AI leaders. Yeah, that's true. I mean, this is a kind of like un uncharted territory for some of these companies.

Like you think about, they're, they're, they're, they're plunging into something, uh, that they know is gonna be big. I, I think when Apple's case, I give them credit for being so disciplined, like, this is a company that, that knows how to integrate a product within its ecosystem without disrupting it. They keep you within the ecosystem.

So they're, they've been probably sussing that out. Um, I mean, then when I think of a company like Met, I think of them as kind of like just jumping from one trend to another and then ripping things up and starting all over. Like Zuckerberg has never been afraid of breaking things and then trying to fix them as fast as possible.

Um, one thing I, I didn't mention is that in addition to the companies that are going through this kind of CAIO transformation, governments doing the same thing. So the, uh, head of, uh, AI for cisa, and, and same thing for, uh, justice Department, the head of ai, both services, both those individuals left it after less than a year. I'm not sure what the exact reasons were, but the government wasn't happy with the progress in those, in both those cases.

So we're gonna see this, I mean, it's just things are moving so fast, there's so much money involved in all these, in all these endeavors that we're gonna see people come and go. And maybe as in the case with, uh, Intel and the meta execs, they went, one went to ai, one went to a startup, maybe they see an opportunity to, to do something on their own now that they've been within a corporate culture, and they see what those companies are, those corporations are gonna be doing On the, on the Apple point. Um, you know, if we, if we kind of look at that, I think that it's interesting that there's this vibe that somehow Apple has been a failure post Steve Jobs.

Um, I should also point out that on October 28th, Apple's market share cap, uh, cap market cap topped, uh, $4 trillion for the first time ever. Um, also, it's interesting, as you mentioned the Apple Watch, you know, you look at that and you're like, yeah, but really, how valuable is it? Is that really a separate product?

Well, think about it this way. 8 billion with companies like Garmin and Fitbit and so on. As of today, uh, apple sells about $30 billion of Apple watches.

Apple and Google has purchased Fitbit, and the total fitness market has ballooned, uh, fitness tracker market has ballooned, uh, but still is now dominated by Apple and Google. Uh, that doesn't sound like a flop to me, but to your point, I don't think Apple knew that they were getting the fitness market. I think Apple thought they were getting into the watch market, and it was only sort of the, in the spaghetti on the wall that said, wait a second, people like tracking their heart rate and their, you know, exercise their runs, their, you know, that's what this is for.

I think that Apple originally thought that the watch was gonna be somehow the next generation iPhone, which of course would be a bit larger of a market than $30 billion, which, you know, admittedly that's a lot of money, but, you know, I think, I think they maybe expected, and maybe Apple did, maybe others did that, that would be where Apple would go with this thing. But instead, what they ended up with is a really nice product that, uh, not only dominates, you know, triple the size of the fitness market dominates that market, but also, I should point out, as a watch blogger sells, uh, get, generates more revenue than the entire Swiss watch industry. So, um, you know, it ain't a bad market by any means.

Oh, yeah. You know, they also, they also discovered Stephen that, um, the watch is a really good primer for younger users. So one thing Apple had told me a couple years ago was that they were discovering that in the education market, they were using it as a way, um, for, for parents, it's like a kind of controlled, uh, uh, settings on the watch where the kids would use it with, with kind of a rudimentary applications, but it was a way to kind of track their kids.

It was a way to get the kids used to, uh, using, um, apple technology and kind of graduating them to the iPhone Apple. I mean, and that, that's what Apple's ultimate goal is. But they were finding it to be kind of a, a, a hit among, among younger kids in, uh, K through 12.

So, um, they were finding different uses, and that's kind of the beauty of this company. The products are so, are so good at, at certain points, they, it will find an audience, you know, eventually. Um, and I think that maybe that's part of maybe some of the, I wouldn't say struggles, but some of the kind of, um, maturation pro process that Apple's going through because as, as we've alluded to before, this company gets into markets after other companies have, have somewhat established the markets, and then they take it to a totally different level in terms of revenue and in terms of, uh, customer satisfaction.

And I think they might be, they're probably doing the same thing with AI that they did with the phone industry, the watch industry, the tablet industry, uh, the music player industry with the iPod. Um, it's, it, it, it'll be interesting 'cause I, I, I really do think that they, that they eventually will hit their mark. It's just a question of when.

Yeah, and I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's, it's, uh, if, if you look at, and you brought up the phone, if you look at the phone, when the phone came out, you know, people were saying, why do we need a device for just calling people? But the reality is that most people use their phone not as a phone to dial up and call people, but it's for all kind of other stuff.

And they, same thing with the watch. I think that's one of the things that Apple is good at, is to take a device with a, a well-known functionality and widen that functionality way beyond its original design. Yeah.

And, and that actually makes me wonder, to your point, John, about Johnny Ive, and open ai, I mean, ive was definitely trying to figure out what an AI device would be, and I think that that's fun. Fundamentally, what we're asking here is, okay, if AI were to be represented in the physical space, what would that device be? I think that's what Apple is trying to figure out.

I What Google, What OpenAI, what Microsoft, um, you know, all these companies, and of course there's all those, um, sort of the microphone badge type items that people are starting to wear. Uh, if you go to Silicon Valley, you cannot escape these pendants and badges that everybody's wearing that's recording everything, uh, constantly. Um, it is, it's everywhere.

And, and I think that, you know, what was that, what was that little one that, um, kind of flopped that was like a pin, uh, the AI pin? What was that thing called? I dunno.

Yes. Yeah, I know you're talking about, right? It was famously written about.

Right. But it, you know, point is, um, think that concept, I think all of these companies are trying to figure it out. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, uh, it, it's, uh, God, it's so, it's, I mean, it was so difficult to, to see where this is all going, because, you know, one of the things too about Apple, and I think you talked about this before Steven in a previous podcast, is that Apple didn't like splurge.

They're not like throwing tons of money into building out data centers for ai. I mean, they're not, they, they, they've, they've been wise in how they've, how they've devoted their resources, which I think is an advantage for them versus say, a meta, which is just not afraid to splurge at all. Um, but yeah, the form, listen to, yeah.

Oh my God, 600. Oh, yeah. 4 trillion through various, um, arrangements and partnerships and in, in invest announced investments.

I mean, it won't go anywhere near that, but that's a, that's a crazy crucible to hang over a company when you're, uh, when your revenue's $20 billion a year and, and you're, you're, I mean, as you mentioned, Apple's watched us more than that a year. Um, so that's why when we talk about Apple, as I, I always think about the mountain of cash. They're sitting on the market valuation.

They've got the tried and true, um, revenue stream, knock on wood for iPhone as they have had for more than a decade, decade plus. And then, and you can, you kind of look at this flip side or some of their competitors who are not nearly as successful in some of those, in some of those areas trying to get into ai. So with Apple, it's, there's so many possibilities.

Yeah, those are good points. John. I I think one of the, the, the important factors to distinct is that companies, like, like Meta and Open AI are core technology providers.

So they have to build a large language model so they really, to a certain degree, don't have a choice and to spend a lot of that money. Um, and, and the bigger the better for the simple reason that we live in a world of, of competition, right? It's really important that it OpenAI comes with a feature or capabilities before their competitors.

And so now you have this wild grow of data centers that they have to build out. If you look at Apple, I look at Apple more as an integrator of, or consumer of that technology, and they integrate that into their products. And so they have the ability, or the option, I guess, to build their own large, like, large language models, but they don't have to, considering that the market has a decent amount of large language models available today.

Yeah. And what we're hearing is that Apple is gonna be licensing, uh, that they had a bake off, and that they're gonna be licensing Gemini from Google. Um, I'm not shocked by that.

Uh, Gemini's really solid. I'm sure that Google also is a really good Apple partner after handing them billions of dollars over the last, uh, 20 years in search revenue. Uh, you know, and, and, and, and maybe, maybe the fact that this, uh, new guy that's gonna be heading AI at Apple came from Google.

Uh, should we read into that at all? Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Um, you know, so one thing too is that I, I've, it, it, it always surfaces, there's always that rumor that still is out there, that Apple may, you know, they don't do a lot of big acquisitions. They rarely do them, but the idea of buying like a perplexity for search would make sense. Um, I, I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but, um, given their history, Apple's history with Google and then this guy, they've brought in, I, I, I don't know.

But, uh, something's gotta be done about Siri. I mean, that's, that's obvious. It's a major hindrance in Albatross.

There has been in terms of the AI developments. Um, but, uh, hey, here's another thing. It was, we, we also have to worry, uh, think about the future of, of Apple at the top.

I mean, cook is just turned 65. He did it, had a glorious run at Apple. I mean, he built the company as an operations guy above and beyond what jobs could have dreamed of.

Uh, J created the foundation and, and, and then, uh, uh, cook just built on upon it brilliantly. Um, but there was talk that he is probably gonna be leaving next year. So who's in, who's in charge, who comes next, and what those person's ideas and, and, um, energy brings.

Yeah, I think there's, there's a, there's many challenges there. I think, you know, change of a CEO is always important because that's, that's kind of indicates most of the time a change in direction and certainly at Apple has been the case. Um, I also think that one of the benefits of Apple is that they don't have to pick a, a, a dedicated partner.

They can be the, the, the company that chooses, you know, at Will. And so they have the benefits to build a platform, if you wish, where they just pick the winner. I mean, the same thing like with the operating system, right?

They build their own operating system at first, and then they just relied on somebody else's because there already was a proven track record. So they don't have to come up and be the leader from a core technology perspective. They can play Switzerland and provide to their customers, maybe with a choice of what's best for their users.

Yeah, that's a real interesting point because they came out way back in 24 with their Apple intelligence announcement saying that they would be working with multiple partners, but that OpenAI, uh, and chat GPT was going to be the first that they implemented. And it was, uh, today you can use chat GPT through Siri on your iPhone already. Um, but of course they had said way back then that Google would be next, and, and that never came.

Uh, then we heard, like we talked about this idea that Apple would be using Gemini as the next generation Siri model. Um, you know, I think you're right, Frederick Apple is really cannily and cash conservatively playing the AI game in a way that might end up looking pretty smart in the future. Um, you know, we'll see what works we'll move forward slowly.

I mean, I don't think that they're really bothered if pundits are saying they're behind the eight ball and not doing ai, right? I I think they're probably looking at the market share of all these other companies and saying, oh yeah, you're really doing ai right, too over there. You know, we'll see, man, that's, That's evolution happening.

Well, the narrative now, like the overriding narrative in Silicon Valley at least, is that open AI is, is is drowning in debt. Like they, they, yeah, the, the math just doesn't add up. Like, it's like how are they possibly going to increase their revenue 10, 20, 30 times?

It still won't be enough to, to pay off all the money they're borrowing. And that's, that is a, a story that keeps gaining traction. The Financial Times just wrote about it.

There have been some studies that address this issue. And, um, Altman, Sam Altman, who's the CEO of Open AI, is finding himself spending more time playing defense. And he probably ever imagined he would.

And, and you talk about, um, apple and, and how candidly they play this, you're, you're absolutely right, Steven, they, they're not, they're not throwing money into this 'cause they can afford to not throw money into it. Yeah. And, and on that point too, you look at Google and Microsoft especially, but also Amazon, and you say, you know, here's companies that spent huge sums of money to play the AI game.

They've bought tons of hardware, they've given open ai, you know, they've invested in open ai, they've invested in a lot of this stuff, but here's also some companies that maybe see a path forward, a business path forward. They're actually making money, they're converting users to paying customers. Well, maybe a little tougher, uh, than it, than it might be.

But they are making money, and I think that they could make money ultimately on ai. Um, uh, uh, you know, in terms of who's tied their boat to open ai, uh, Nvidia, uh, Oracle, uh, I worry about them sometimes I worry whether they're, you know, if this, uh, financial, uh, catastrophe happens for open ai, uh, what does that mean for the rest of the industry? But I'll tell you what, apple is, their, their, their boat is over on the side at, uh, you know, tied to the dock.

They're just gonna feel a little bob in the waters if something like that should happen. You know, that's one thing I just really quickly, sorry, Frederick is that Cook was, again, he was a, he was, he is like the best COO ever, perhaps in tech, in tech history. That's why he was annoyed to, to replace jobs.

He knows my, the financial side as, as well as anyone in terms of investing, in terms of operational efficiency. And I think this has been part of his calculus for the last few years. He's letting them spin like, like crazy because they have to in many cases.

But I think that that's inherently an advantage to not do as much as others. It's gonna sound weird, but sometimes you get ahead by not doing as much as other people are trying to do. Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, the Apple Board is significantly different from the Open AI board, right?

There's no way that the Apple Board will ever allow the amount of spending without a, a, uh, a wild return on investment, so to speak, if there is ever any. Um, so I think that the two boards are acting differently, and, and I think that's what we're seeing in the market, but you know, it, you need both. You need people that, that go full force, develop the technology, um, with, with partners like Nvidia and others, see what comes out of it.

And then you have people like, like Apple who look maybe from the side and say, what, what is the technology we can integrate? How can we make our products better? What kind of devices can can benefit from this?

And, and in the end, um, provide the, the, the con the consumers, uh, a better, a better use of their devices. I think, I think, um, I think Frederick summarized it really well. I mean, I, again, I think it's like the tor, I mean, let's, I'll go, I'll, I'll resort to the cliche, okay?

Because I'm a reporter. It's like the tortoise in the hare. I mean, apple is, is is seeing this in a different way than others are.

Others are pursuing these partnerships. I sometimes think it's literally crazy. All these co cooperation competition going on between all these companies overlapping with one another.

It's pretty head spinning. They're, they're churning out models, one after another. It's just like this leapfrog game, this money game, money pit.

And then Apple is just kind of slowly, methodically watching it all happen because they can afford to do this, because they have that incredible, uh, revenue engine with, with iPhone and, and, and not their other products and Apple Services in particular. So, um, again, they are playing the long game versus everyone else who's in a mad dash. Yep.

And they're making money at that long game. Um, you know, but, you know, kind of back to the start here. Uh, so Apple announced that, uh, John Jean Andrea is going to retire.

Um, they had already taken Siri out from under him, uh, earlier this year. Uh, they had already leaked, potentially I, apple probably was the leak that, uh, Tim Cook would be stepping down as CEO and potentially John turn their hardware VP would be stepping back up into that position. Um, I think that Apple is trying to position themselves, uh, for, you know, growth wherever this AI market happens.

I think they're trying to position themselves as a steady alternative to the big bets in the tech industry. Um, you know, apparently, you know, they weren't satisfied with what was happening with Siri, but I don't think that that was an existential, uh, crisis for Apple. I think that was more of, you know, as it's being painted by some, I think it's more of Apple reacting to the market and reacting to their internal development, saying, we gotta, we gotta change how things are being done here.

So it really is an interesting point and, and back as well to the thought. Those of you who are listening to this and you are at product companies and you're trying to implement ai, you know, that's, I guess, the takeaway. Think about what works.

Think about what's actually attracting customers, what's actually building revenue, what's actually improving the experience of people using your applications. Don't just throw a chat bot in there. Don't just, you know, uh, implement AI for AI's sake.

Certainly. Um, unless you got somebody like Frederick to help you, don't buy pallets of GPUs, uh, with no idea how to do 'em or what to do with them, um, he knows by the way, he, he knows how to make that happen. Uh, but, uh, do think about how AI can serve the needs of your customers and help build a better business for you.

So thank you for joining me for this episode of utilizing AI from the Futurum Group. As we wrap up, uh, where can people connect with you and continue this conversation, Frederick? Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn as Frederick v Hern, and on our website, it's ens com And John.

Yeah, I'm, I'm like Frederick. I'm, I'm big on LinkedIn, so it's j Swartz. Um, that's where I am.

I don't, I don't really go in other social media areas. And of course, uh, John, uh, you and I see each other on the Textron Gang pretty frequently as well over at, uh, Textron tv. As for me, you'll find me as s foskett on most social media networks, including the old LinkedIn, as well as, uh, blue Sky, Macon, and others.

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