The Future of Java Development with The Eclipse Foundation’s Tanja Obradović

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Techstrong tv. My next guest is Tanya.

I hope I get this name right. I practiced. My next guest is Tanya Oik.

Obra. No, ovo. Say it for me, Tanya.

So my name is Tanya Ovi. Ovi Ovi Obra. You say it so much better than I do.

I gotta tell you the truth. When you say, Oh, you're doing very well, you're doing pretty well. No, I know, but you say it with with feeling As if I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, yeah. Well, me, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm like an ai, I'm a hollow, I'm a hollow impersonation of a real person, perhaps. Oh, no.

But in any event, Tanya is the senior manager of Java programs at the Eclipse Foundation. Tanya, welcome to Tech Drunk tv. It's great to have you on.

Thank you. Likewise. It's very nice being here.

And thanks for the invite to Alan. My pleasure. So Tanya, how, how did you come to be the senior manager for Java programs over at the Eclipse Foundation?

I know it's been a long journey, actually. I am, uh, involved with, uh, Java for a very long time. I don't wanna say, uh, how many years, but let's say, uh, Java is 30 years old, so I'm there from the get go.

So, really, there is my connection with, with Java. Java. Now, I was there, um, uh, working with Java in various capacity.

Um, I was a developer. Uh, I was doing consulting, a course developer, you know, um, uh, doing program management for various companies. I worked for Oracle for many, many, many years.

And at some point in time, um, uh, orgo has decided to contribute the whole Java EE body of work to Eclipse Foundation. And, uh, me being involved in Java, and particularly within, uh, with, uh, uh, enterprise Java for most of my career, this seemed to be like a good fit. So that's how I ended up, uh, being at the Eclipse Foundation.

So from the, from the get go of Jakarta ee, if you will. Um, and then, uh, uh, my responsibilities grew a little bit more, um, and, uh, um, covering the team that is, uh, um, working with Java related projects, and particularly, uh, in, in, in the formation of, uh, the, uh, indu various industry collaborations. Uh, and that's how I ended up, uh, being, uh, um, uh, lead for Java programs at Eclipse Foundation.

I love it. What a great, what a great journey. Good for you.

Hard to believe 30 years, right? I, I know, I remember. I remember, I remember Crazy, crazy times.

You know, I started a web design company and web, it became web hosting 1995, maybe it was so 30 years ago. Yeah. 96.

Yeah. We went to a client and they wanted to have a spinning globe on their website. And back then there wasn't anything.

There was no, there was no, there was nothing. It was Java. And my partner designed a transparent spinning globe in Java.

It was beautiful. Of course, this was when we still had modems, right? So, you know, if you didn't mind waiting two to three minutes for it to download it, just start spinning.

It was beautiful. Anyway, um, Tanya, you know, I, I've been involved. I'm older than you.

I've been involved in tech space a long time, long time. And you know, I, I look at the way open source is today versus the, when I first got involved in open source, it was Dr. Richard Stallman and what I called the Cathedral and the Bazaar.

If you ever read that book, kind of the wild west of, of open source. Then we had sort of this big brother era of open source where Sun micro systems, for instance, would be the, the, the caretakers for Java and just Sun. What they decided, they decided, right?

They were good kids. I don't want to give it a bad context. They were good care keepers in, of course, it got sold to Oracle and, and everything.

But, um, but now we're in what I call the foundational era of open source, and we have the Eclipse Foundation and the Linux Foundation, and the Apache Foundation. And the beautiful thing about these foundations, it, it allows competitors to cooperate. So cooperation for the good of everyone, and it's a great, and, and, and as a result, open source has never been more powerful, more popular and more widely used than it is.

So, thank you to, to the Eclipse Foundation, and for all the work there, it's why we're able to do these great things that we do. Um, you mentioned Jakarta. Not everyone in our audience is gonna know Jakarta.

How would you describe it to people? So, uh, as I mentioned, um, uh, uh, Jakarta EE is a su, uh, successor of Java ee. Yes.

So basically, it is the continuation of the technology that existed for, um, quite a few decades now, uh, as well. Um, and, uh, it, it came out again, it's, it's great how you tied the open source into the whole conversation. So, um, we, uh, Java came as an open source project from, uh, one vendor into, uh, eclipse Foundation, where we're taking really, um, uh, uh, care and making sure that we are preserving vendor neutrality.

So, uh, meaning you don't have the dominance of one vendor deciding on what is going to happen in the technology. And, uh, that actually created a major shift, um, uh, uh, uh, for, for, uh, Java E. Um, and if you, if you really look at it, uh, Java e for, for, um, various reasons, uh, uh, in the technology in different, uh, um, pushes that were happening at the time, uh, with Oracle was a little bit neglected.

Uh, we, we were all aware of it. So therefore, it was the community and, and everyone who was, uh, dependent on this technology, who kind of, uh, um, uh, pushed a little bit more, uh, for the idea of, uh, uh, uh, contributing the body of work of Java E to Eclipse Foundation. And once that agreement was put in place, and we started, um, uh, receiving the, the, the technology at the Eclipse Foundation community, again, uh, raised their voice and decided to rename the technology to mark the shift into Jakarta E.

So basically, the last release of Java EE was Java E eight. And, uh, um, uh, the first release to honor the continuity of Jakarta EE is Jakarta E eight as well. So, um, first initial, um, couple of releases, uh, were really dedicated to making sure that we, um, uh, properly, um, uh, have the base of this technology moved to Eclipse Foundation, um, to have a different, uh, uh, process for releasing of these, uh, uh, of the work, particularly of the specifications.

And then, um, uh, so defining the process, uh, um, you know, rebranding, um, uh, the governance model, uh, making sure that we establish the vendor neutral, uh, way of developing specifications. Um, and then with, with, I would say, um, uh, uh, Jakarta release nine, there was a major shift that was happening, uh, with adopting the new Jakarta, uh, namespace. We had the restrictions on the use of JX namespace, so therefore, we had to do this major shift, which was, I now, uh, looking in the hindsight, I'm looking at, uh, as a, as a blessing, uh, in disguise, almost like, yes, it was a major work, major disruption, uh, uh, uh, in the industry, but it really showcase to what degree technologies out there, um, are dependent on the, um, uh, uh, Jakarta.

And, um, uh, one by one, um, you know, we, we heard, oh, we need to deal with the namespace change. We need to, and now we're supporting, uh, Jakarta nine and so on. So, um, uh, uh, it really, um, uh, alerted the industry to, uh, to Jakarta now.

Then we, we released, and that was, uh, um, timeframe of, uh, 2020, uh, within two years, we, we released, uh, Jakarta 10, which was 2022. And, and now we're releasing Jakarta 11, and I'm calling the timeframe is, uh, 24, 25. Um, uh, and, and, and, and we're keeping in this, uh, two year-ish type of, uh, cadence.

Um, uh, I will talk about why two year-ish and why 2024 and 2025 in a minute. But just wanna, um, uh, uh, highlight that. Um, we are, uh, already anticipating 20, uh, in 2026, um, uh, Jaar 12 release.

So, um, the story is really showcasing the interest of the community to, uh, for the longevity of this technology. And it, uh, actually shows the, the interest. And, uh, you will see as we start talking for a specific release, uh, for this specific release, that, um, uh, there is innovation also coming into play.

There, there is a lot of work and a lot of investment from the existing community and a lot of work that is actually, um, uh, enabling inter people interested in this, uh, body of work to easier, um, uh, uh, become part of the community, um, uh, with the use of the newer technologies and not being stuck in, in, in, in, uh, time with this technology. Um, so, uh, a lot of I agree. Yeah, yeah.

You know, Tanya, sometimes you, sometimes you gotta make a clean cut. Yes. Right?

Because otherwise it could just fester and draw out, and you never, so as painful as it might have been back when you did nine, it was probably the right thing to do. Secondly, you know what, I think it was Shakespeare who said, right, arose by any other name, would still smell as sweet. And, uh, no matter what you call it, it, the usefulness of it, and, and its, and its use in industry in the, in the world is evident.

Let's focus in on Jakarta EE 11. Yep. What's, what's the big story around this release?

So, the big story really about this release, we call it, uh, a release, um, about performance and de developer productivity. And those are the, like every release, we have some keywords. This is the, this is what we're, um, uh, uh, how we describe this particular release.

So, um, the, the, the, the, the key elements of this release is one brand new, uh, specification. 0. Then we're, um, also, we did a major, major work on the, um, uh, test compatibility kit, test compatibility kit for, for, um, uh, Jakarta is crucial because what we are doing is, um, we are all the implementers of these, of, of Jakarta technology, um, uh, have the opportunity to be, uh, a certified, um, uh, on, uh, as, as Jakarta EE product.

So we are having this test that every implementation, uh, needs to go through in order to claim compatibility and use Jakarta logo, for example, to showcase, uh, um, their, um, compliance with, with the, uh, specifications. So, believe it or not, uh, uh, the, the, uh, test, uh, compatibility kit was not, um, revamped or has not been modernized, uh, or restructured since, uh, the day it, it was initiated, which was, uh, quite a couple of decades ago. Uh, so it was using old technology and, uh, um, it, it was, uh, limiting, um, entry barriers for, for new developers to, um, innovate, uh, in, in the tests as well as it was, it was, uh, kind of limiting new implementers to go through the certification process.

So that's, um, uh, the, the team, uh, the community, um, uh, involved in, in, in Jakarta 11 actually took time this year. Uh, and that's why, um, I was referring to 24, 25 ish, uh, uh, timeframe, uh, because the, the team really took time to modernize the, the, the test compatibility kit. And we're now the tester base on the Uni five and, uh, Apache Maven.

And, uh, it was restructured from this monolithic, um, uh, uh, body of work into, um, uh, uh, uh, different modules that are, uh, uh, possibly specific to one specification only. Um, and, and we can easier build up on, on the, on the, um, uh, new tests to add, add new tests to the, uh, TC case. Um, so we, just to illustrate the amount of work that was necessary to be put into this, um, uh, the, the, the individual specifications, so the Jakarta is, is, is, is comprised of over, uh, 30, uh, individual specifications.

Um, all the individual specifications were ready for release mid, uh, 20, 24. However, the team really, uh, cares about, uh, uh, the quality of the releases and quality of the certifications and, and, uh, compatibility program, um, uh, that they decide, okay, well, let's step back, uh, put the time necessary into modernizing these tests. So, uh, we can, um, uh, uh, see the benefits later on.

And basically, if you look at it, they didn't anticipate it'll take almost a full year. It's not almost, it took a full year. Um, uh, but, uh, uh, we, as a consequence decided, or, or the community rather, has decided to, uh, start releasing in phases.

So as, as, as you, uh, may know, uh, Jakarta ee, uh, consists of, of, uh, a couple of profiles and then the platform, uh, uh, that includes all of the specifications. So, uh, the smallest grouping is, uh, uh, Jakarta core profile. And, uh, that was ready for release in December, 2024, and it was released.

So Jakarta, uh, E Core 11 was released in December, 2024. Then, um, uh, we released, uh, in March, 2025, uh, Jakarta 11, uh, web profile. And, uh, now finally, we are on June 26th announcing the release of the Jakarta, uh, platform.

In the meanwhile, we also have the, the, uh, uh, compatibility, uh, products being, um, uh, showcased on our website. So we do have already, uh, um, uh, core, uh, profile implementations, uh, uh, compatible with the Jakarta 11, same with the web profile. And we're expecting, uh, very shortly that we will see, uh, quite a few, uh, adopters of Jakarta 11.

And, and beside those two major, uh, pieces of work I would like to call out that we are continuously, um, uh, improving many other specifications. So pruning, what's not being used, um, updating with a little bit, uh, uh, modern technology, uh, um, uh, we are, uh, continuing use of Java records, for example, uh, throughout the, the, the specifications, um, uh, removing references to security manager, um, as, as Java se and, and j uh, four 11 is, is, is, uh, um, uh, requiring. So there is, there is a lot of, uh, um, uptaking, uh, that is, uh, uh, also, um, uh, uh, uh, taking place, take place.

Yes. So, uh, we are also, uh, for 11, uh, that is, uh, mostly interested for any Java developer, um, doing the enterprise Java development. They always want to be on the latest, uh, uh, Java se.

So we are supporting, um, uh, and based everything on the Java SC 17, however, just because, uh, everything can run on on Java, uh, uh, 21 as well, uh, uh, Java 21, uh, features can be used throughout, uh, including virtual threads that, uh, many developers are interested in. So a lot of, a lot of, uh, good work, um, was happening in the 11, but I have more. Okay, go ahead.

But wait, there's more. Go ahead. So, um, uh, the interesting thing, when, when, when the community realized that the TCK development is going to take quite a bit of time, they actually, uh, decided that to start the conversation about Jakarta 12 in parallel.

So the team that is focused on TCK uh, work is, is relatively small, and I absolutely have to call out the efforts that were, um, uh, done by, by Red Hat, uh, on, on, on the, on the, on the TCK work. Um, our, uh, release lead from Microsoft, uh, also pushed for the conversations that are, um, uh, Jakarta 12 related. So we are now having actually solid plans for Jakarta 12, and that's why we're, uh, kind of, uh, uh, calling it out that we're hoping to release Jakarta 12 in the, uh, the year 2026.

Um, so the, the, the, the, the, the, the release plans for individual specifications, um, uh, were already, uh, done for 12. And, uh, there are, uh, planning their plans for the core profile, uh, for web profile and the platform 12. Uh, uh, also, um, uh, uh, the, the release plans are, uh, uh, done.

Um, so between the plans and realization, there is a long, um, uh, uh, uh, long time, uh, a long step to do, but nevertheless, the work has already started. And, um, it is, it makes me, um, extremely proud, uh, to, uh, how we're doing in, in Jakarta world. I love it, Tanya, that that was, that was a lot you packed in there in a short time.

One thing you left out Yes. For people who want to go see this, download it, read about it themselves, where do they go? Jakarta ee I love, its easy.

How soon Is that? Yes, fantastic. Good for you.

Good for you guys. Yes, Tanya, congratulations on what sounds like a jam packed release here. You guys have put the time and effort into it is a multi-year effort.

Good luck with Jakarta 12. We'll have you come back on that. And good luck to the Eclipse Foundation.

Keep doing what you guys are doing. You make, you make open source what it is. So thank you.

Thank you for your efforts. Thank you so much, Alan, and it's great to be talking to you. Hope to talk to you soon.

Absolutely. Lemme see if I get, take one more shot at this Tanya Obvi. Obvi.

Fantastic. I'm getting there. All right.

Yes, Jakarta, E 11 from the Eclipse Foundation here on Tech Trunk tv. We're gonna take a break now. We'll be right back.